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by Rachel Maddow, Air America Radio Jan. 9, 2007
This is a transcript of an interview between Rachel Maddow of Air America Radio
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I have to admit, I just haven't been keeping up with what I should know about Somalia, and the latest stories of the U.S. conducting airstrikes there against alleged terrorists had me alarmed but confused (because God forbid the mainstream media would provide the smallest bit of context).
Hence, this basic guide to the Somalia problem (hint: it strongly resembles all our other foreign policy blunders these days).
In brief, we are attacking a popular Muslim group that has had a stabilizing effect on Somalia and which has no proven ties to Al Qaeda, by claiming that they're in league with Al Qaeda. Plus, our violent actions are creating many actual terrorists. It’s a little like Iraq, if Saddam had been really popular and if the invasion of Iraq got almost no press coverage.
Madeline Zane
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and Salim Lone, former UN ambassador to Iraq, currently a journalist in Kenya, broadcast on January 9, 2007:
Salim Lone: The Americans are fighting terror in a way which is actually increasing it. It is actually increasing terrorism. This is not the way. We have evidence of it over the last four or five years, you know, there are greater numbers of terrorists around the world. Countries have been destroyed. Iraq, Afghanistan. The regions are extremely unstable. It is not a successful strategy. So it's actually quite electrifying. We all remember Somalia, 19 or 18 American soldiers were killed there in 1993. The U.S. has basically not since that time attacked Somalia, although it has accused terrorists of hiding there. And it is true that the 1998 bombing of the American embassy in Nairobi, that was planned in Somalia, that we know. It was planned there because the country was lawless.
And it became less lawless this year for one simple reason: a group called Islamic Courts Union. They provided stability. In the region they were popular, it was because the people were happy to see their chaos and violence end. Now, they did some pretty stupid and some nasty things, they banned the showing of films, shows. If one was found smoking on the streets or wearing skirts were harassed. I mean, these things were obviously |
wrong. But you don't start a war because of that. You try to engage with a group that is popular.
Rachel Maddow: After sixteen years of essentially no central government, the rise of the Islamic Courts Union was seen as bringing some sort of stability. The United States supported the nominal Somali government against the Islamic Courts Union. Now they've intervened militarily on that side, and in supporting the Ethiopian-backed troops that came in to fight against them.
I wonder, though, about the U.S. government's claims, they're particularly specific around the gunships and the attack helicopters that have gone into Somalia yesterday and today. They've claimed specifically that the Islamic Courts Union, that this rising, stabilizing force in Somalia has links to Al Qaeda and therefore has to be attacked, basically, as a terrorist-harboring organization. What do you think about that?
Salim Lone: Well, look. First of all, we have to deal with the facts, and not with allegations. I mean, all governments lie to defend their policies. That is nothing new. It is entirely possible that there are terrorists who are or were within the Islamic Courts Union.
However, we do know from all reports that most of the leadership of the Islamic Courts Union was not composed of terrorists. The fact is that the Islamists said, "We are keen to work with the West." When Al Qaeda declared, six or seven months ago, that they support the Islamists, the Islamists issued a statement saying, "We do not belong to Al Qaeda, we do not need their support."
But what has happened now is that with these Ethiopian troops in Somalia, and now with the latest, with the American attacks, first, now, this is another front in the Muslim world. But number two, those within the Islamic world who are more radical have been strengthened first by the Ethiopian, and second by the American attacks.
So it is really quite mystifying, why the United States after its terrible debacle and the destruction of Iraq, would want to open another front. It totally defies the imagination, my small imagination.
Rachel Maddow: Acknowledging the American interest in combating Al Qaeda, combating terrorism, trying to give rise to conditions around the world where Al Qaeda and other extremist terrorist groups will not have safe haven from which to plan attacks against the West, in acknowledging a way to do that and acknowledging the risk of that in Somalia, especially after sixteen years or seventeen years of Somalia having no established central government, is it your opinion that the best way that the U.S. could achieve its interests in Somalia is by engaging with the Islamic Courts Union, which has the support of the people, which did have a stabilizing effect, even though they would be, at least from Western eyes, a Taliban-style Islamist government?
Salim Lone: Well, I think we should be careful here. The Taliban themselves were not terrorists. They never launched an attack on the United States. It is definitely true that they harbored Osama bin Laden and the others in Al Qaeda, whose members attacked the United States.
But I think that the main point is this: If the Islamists were harboring some terrorists and denying it, then speaking with them would give you access if you showed that you are their friends, that you are not their enemy. Somalia is surrounded by countries who are very strong U.S. allies. Kenya is one, Ethiopia is another, Djibouti is another, Djibouti has a huge American base which is going to become the headquarters of a new African command of the U.S. military.
Somalia, when it is lawless, which it is going to be now again, is infinitely more dangerous than it would have been under a government or under a group which would have provided stability and who were saying they would work with the United States and the West to insure there was not terrorism. So the issue is, help them. If there are people in Somalia who would be interested in attacking the United States, help that group to prevent that from happening. I don't see their interest in harboring terrorists. Maybe I'm naive or stupid. I don't see what interest Islamic Courts Union would have, wanting to take power, wanting to form a government, to at the same time want to harbor terrorists.
Rachel Maddow: The Islamists, if the United States was willing to engage with them, could push them in that direction.
Salim Lone: Absolutely. That is the way. There is no other way when their group is popular.
Transcribed by Madeline Zane
from original broadcast
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There's much more than this at Unknown News.
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It is really quite mystifying, why the United States after its terrible debacle and the destruction of Iraq, would want to open another front. It totally defies the imagination ...
Somalia, when it is lawless, which it is going to be now again, is infinitely more dangerous than it would have been under a government or under a group which would have provided stability and who were saying they would work with the United States and the West to insure there was not terrorism. ...
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