I'm sorry MonkeyMan, but Sarah can't come to the phone and answer your question. She is
being briefed on our nation's history at the moment, or cooking moose stew, or
congratulating her daughter for making the right choice. So I will take on the challenge of
explaining the evangelical right's theological backing for their seemingly contradictory
stand on the killing of babies. I'm not one of them, I can't pretend to fully understand
the Biblical basis they claim for their rhetoric, nor do I believe it is soundly based in
the Bible.
Their stand on abortion is rooted in the logic which follows if you assume a human being
is created at the moment of conception. It is clear that the full set of genes which the
baby will have are present at that time. Whether much else is, is up for debate. But for
whatever reason, they believe that a fertilized single cell is qualified to deserve the
title "human being." As killing a human being is both condemned in the Ten Commandments
and illegal, they're agin any and all abortions and any and all birth control measures
taken after conception except if another human's life, the mother, is at stake. It's
murder in their eyes.
I will take on the challenge of explaining the evangelical right's theological backing for their seemingly contradictory stand on the killing of babies.
I'm not one of them, I can't pretend to fully understand the Biblical basis they claim for their rhetoric, nor do I believe it is soundly based in the Bible.
Their stand on war is taken from the Old Testament. One can point to numerous times in
the Old Testament where God orders the Israelites to smite this group or slay that people.
The Bible condemns murder when an individual does it, but allows it when an army
does it -- how does one resolve this dilemma? By invoking the will of God. What is anathema
for an individual becomes mandatory for society once God commands it. His authority
trumps his own rules for us. War is permissible only if it is God's will or in self
defense. God's will is taken for granted by conservative right Christians in cases of
self defense.
You can argue 'til your blue in the face with them about the supremacy of the New
Testament over the Old, and the obvious reality that Christ never gives any approval for
war. He doesn't make much effort to talk about war at all. They take this absence as
confirmation that the former covenant with God which permitted divine war is still in
force. I should add they will further support the case for war in the Middle East as
being God's will because he has granted title to the Promised Land to the Israelites, not
a bunch of Arabs.
To sum up, you can kill babies if God's will approves and authorizes war, but otherwise
you can't. Whenever they talk war, they will add "He is God and He approves this
message." So ya see, killing some folks' babies while not killing others is all quite
logical, even spiritual!
How 'bout we stone the bastards who believe in this twisted logic? Stoning is commanded
in the Bible for certain crimes. But we don't stone people anymore, which exposes the
fallacy of invoking Old Testament rules to justify war in these "end times."
Excruciatingly well-argued. You've even answered a long-simmering question from my mind's back-burner: I don't see much of anything about abortion in the Bible, let alone any exception for the life of the mother. Always assumed that little loophole was crafted because without it, more women (and their widowed husbands) would loudly object to rules forbidding abortion. But it's a form of self-defense, and that actually makes some sense to me.
As for Biblical support for the anti-abortion stand, I can't speak for conservative Christians, but you might try reading about Onan. God killed him because he had sex while using a form of birth control. Thus sex without an intent to produce a child is considered immoral. This argument would conceivably apply to all contraceptives. I don't know if conservative Christians go that far. The Catholic Church does.
Onan's story has even led to condemnation of masturbation. If God abides by those interpretations, pretty much all men are going to hell. According to one study, 93% of men said they masturbate and the other 7% were lying.
God will get around to wiping me out for not following orders at some point. As for other
similarities between my story and Onan's, I couldn't possibly know what you are referring
to. ;-)
Comment: (9/19/2008) Actually the first organ developed shortly after conception is the brain. The brain makes the rest of the human fetus. There is a point during pregnancy when a tadpole and a human look exactly alike, so that throws out the theory that life begins at conception. In addition the Bible makes no mention of when life actually begins, and abortion is not ever mentioned in the Old or New Testaments. The Religious Right are dead wrong with what they preach. They believe what their pastors want them to believe. I have not yet met a Christian who can think for him/herself without depending on God for an answer.
The article is correct when God told one Tribe to wipe out another Tribe. But the Iraq war is not of God's design. Bush believes he's a messenger of God so the war is okay despite the loss of life of innocent civilians. They are just fodder for the war effort. I still want to Bush and his thugs in a plane and drop them in the middle of Baghdad. Let them fend for themselves and see how far they get without getting stoned to death.
The article mentioned that stoning isn't done anymore, but this is not true. The Arabs still stone people to death and so do the Iraqis, Pakistanis, and other Middle East countries. Dishonor the family and it's a guarantee that you will be stoned to death...
Stephen H.PERMANENT LINK Comment: (9/19/2008) I challagen It is also in the old Testament when the 10 commandns were written in stone by God himself. One of them was Thou Shall Not Kill, so if you think having an abortion is a way of getting around it or twisting it. And yes they still stone people to death today. Its to darn bad they don't have this in our County also a thief when he caught first thime they cut off his fingers next time its his hand.Yhey would be a lot less murders, and stealing going on if they did.
Joy B.PERMANENT LINK Comment: (9/20/2008) Joy B., let's review the 10 Commandments, ok?
~Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
~ Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
~ Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
~ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates.
~ Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
~Thou shalt not kill.
~ Thou shalt not commit adultery.
~Thou shalt not steal.
~Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
~ Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
Soooooo ... Lying, cheating, and screwing around were given the same weight as offenses as killing. Why isn't infidelity illegal? Why isn't lying? Why isn't it against the law to say God dammit? Are folks to be arrested for working in the office or doing a little yard work on a Sunday? Why don't we whack off John Edward's penis for infidelity? By your logic there would be less cheating on spouses, which is one of the commandments from God.
This is what pisses me off most about Christians. The whole idea of degrees of sin, taking pieces and parts of the Bible to suit their prejudices. God Hates Shrimp (webpage) has a great discussion about the same kinds of arguments about homosexuals. Christians use parts of the Old Testament to argue against gays but don't eat kosher. It's the same damn book supposedly written by God. The same evangelicals who preach parts of the Bible then slip off to cheat on their wives, covet their neighbors Rolex, and ignore their parents. GRRRRRRRRRRRR! No wonder Christians were used as Lion food. I love God, but can't stand Christians.
MonkeyManPERMANENT LINK Comment: (9/21/2008) MonkeyMan, the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is more properly rendered "Thou shalt not murder." BibleStudy.org has a good
discussion on when killing was permissible under the Old Testament.
If you read far enough down that page, you will see how Christ gets to the root cause of
murder. Murder is the result of anger. Eliminate the anger and a murder will never
occur.
The commandment "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain" is often misconstrued
as meaning "don't swear." The commandment is really saying "don't be a religious
hypocrite." If you say you are a Christian, you are taking on the name "Christian." So
be one! Don't be a "pretend" Christian. Swearing is trivial. Hypocrisy is a far greater
spiritual crime.
Stephen H. makes the comment "There is a point during pregnancy when a tadpole and a human
look exactly alike, so that throws out the theory that life begins at conception." I will
counter that by quoting two old saws: You can't tell a book by its cover and looks can be
deceiving. I don't see how what the fetus looks like has to do with when life begins. Is
Stephen H. saying we are all tadpoles first and then later become humans?
SirJPERMANENT LINK
Somewhere, I'm sure, there's a church full of wacko faux Christians with pictures of tadpoles on the wall, or on a cross ...
Comment: (9/22/2008)
This cartoon's not all that funny, so I came up with my own:
Attendance at the Tadpole Faux-Christian church has jumped dramatically ever since the pastor removed the tadpole statues which the congregation used in their worship ceremonies and replaced them with statues of Sarah Palin.
SirJPERMANENT LINK Comment: (9/23/2008) SirJ, I live in Georgia so I can't swing a dead cat without hitting a fake Christian. From my supervisor who went to church to pick up his mistresses to gay men who live a life of desperation in the church as married (to women) men. I left the church when I was 16 and haven't been back in 25 years. Even at that age I could see the hypocrisy. I remember little of the bible lessons except: "Judge not, lest you be judged." Oddly enough the one principle I remember is the same one that is forgotten by most of the Christians I know.
I glanced at the biblestudy.org and I like this quote: "Christians must be peacemakers (Matthew 5:9, Romans 14:19)"
I've studied Daoism, been to Hindu temples and read a lot about various ideas about God. I have concluded that it is foolish for anyone to think they know God or know what God thinks. I don't need to understand God. I believe God is good, Faith is personal, and Religion is bad. And Palin and that guy on her ticket must be defeated. We don't need a schizophrenic who thinks God is talking to her at the helm.
MonkeyManPERMANENT LINK
